Future of Aircraft Maintenance?
I am writing today’s blog from Virginia Beach where I am attending the “Future of Aviation Maintenance” symposium.
The conference is being held to discuss the gap between what skills the industry feels an ideal aircraft mechanic should possess and what skills Part 147 schools are instructing. There are individuals from different alphabet associations, the FAA, Part 147 schools and industry.
There are many speakers lined up to discuss the gap between the skills mechanics have coming out of school and the skills necessary to step into a job maintaining today’s advanced aircraft. There are other issues on the table such as how to attract today’s youth to a career in aviation when they could take the career path of least resistance pursuing other careers such as computer technology where they would be able to get an entry-level job making more money than an A&P out of school.
So, what are your thoughts? What does industry need to do to close the gap between the skills A&Ps have right out of school and the skills they need in the “real world”? If you could change the curriculum at the schools, what would you change? What courses would you concentrate more on? What would you concentrate less on? What would you delete or add? How can training evolve to meet tomorrow’s needs?
But the bigger question - what can we do to help recruit more youth to pursue aircraft maintenance as a career? What can we do as aircraft maintenance professionals to help raise the interest level in aircraft maintenance?
We look forward to your feedback.
Joe Escobar
A&P/IA
Industry needs to partner up with the Part 147 schools and lend their industrial resources to the partnership. With this the schools can step up and teach the technician of the 21st Century.
Thanks,
Michael A. Molzahn
A&P Student @ Spartan College of Aeronautics and Technology
Good comment Mike. The folks that organized this event had that thought in mind. There are representatives from 147 schools, FAA, industry, and associations. The talk has been positive with several possible ways to move forward with changes to part 147 to produce mechanics for the 21st century. There are also ideas for career growth (and advanced certification) so that mechanics have a vertical path for advancement other than just an IA or FCC license (as it is today).
Thanks for the feedback.
Joe
To address the future recruitment into Aircraft maintenance it is likely that the subject would have to be addressed on several fronts none of which are will produce quick results. First the indusrty has to come around where wages are more in line with the responsibility associated with the role. This means the cost of airtravel needs to go up, as technicians we have little control over this. Another way to attract a workforce is to learn to market ourselves as the professionals that we are. Over the decades the flight crew have excelled in this area. Its easier for that group as they are more visable to the general public. Ourselves sort of fall in to the rule of “out of sight, Out of mind, somehow we need to change that. Third you only have to do a little research on skilled labour to find that the the pool is shrinking. The shrinking pool means there is less knowledgeable people available to train others. This leads me to my last point is training, the industry has seen through financial cut backs and higher operating cost a reduction in training which does not help to develope the skilled labour force. This all leads to the downward spiral towards the the future of aircraft maintenance.
What can we do?
Look,Act, Be and promote Professionalism.It one of the fastest ways to earn respect. It human nature for people to seek out respect and want to be in those places.
Take advantage of the knowledge that surrounds you and strive to educate yourself ( there are many methods to do this).
Seak out training that will provide you with required knowledge and the best possible return on investment for yourself, business or employer.
WHY SHOULD KIDS BECOME AVIATION MECHANICS? I WENT TO SCHOOL,GOT MY A&P WORKED 7YRS, WENT AN GOT MY FCC WORKED UNTIL I WAS HURT AT WORK IN 2000.I HAD 12YRS WORKING ON A/C FROM 727,737,A300,DC8,DC9,747.NOW I CAN’T GET A JOB BECAUSE I DON’T “FIT” IN WITH THESE COMPANYS. I HAVE THE KNOWLEDGE,BUT NOTSIZE.PS IAM 5′10 &400LBS.LBS I HAD NO PROBLEMS AT THE PLACES I WORKED. SO NOW YOU MAY SEE WHY KIDS MIGHT NOT WANT TO WORK IN AVIATION IF THEY KNOW THEY WOULD BE DISCRIMINATED AGAINST.IF THIS IS THE WAY THEIR GOING TO BE, WHO IS GOING TO FIX THESE PLANES?THE MONKEYS AT THE TOP OF THE TREE!!! IF THEY WISH TO FIX THE PROBLEMS FACING SCHOOLS AN THE AIRLINE COMPANYS, MAYBE THEY NEED TO WORRY ABOUT THEIR HIRING PRATICES FIRST,SO THAT THE SCHOOLS WILL KNOW WHO TO TAKE IN AN WHO NOT TO TAKE IN. FIX THAT AN MAYBE YOU MIGHT GET MORE KIDS NTERESTED IN AVIATION AGAIN LIKE I WAS WHEN I WAS A KID.
Sorry Joe, but I can’t recommend any changes and I wouldn’t recommend this career to any youngster starting out. With more than 28 years with two major airlines (Braniff and the scab-infested nwa), I left the industry that is paying less than the equivalent of what I was earning when I started. Why work nights, weekends, holidays, etc. for companies that consider you to be just a necessary evil no matter how “professional” you me be? I’ve found a new career where I can utilize most of the skills I’ve accumulated over the years. It is much more stable and will compensate me well. I’ve always loved aviation since before I was a CAP cadet in school and will likely still follow events closely, but I’m done career wise and know of way too many others who are in the same boat. Good luck to any who choose to stay on!
Mike you hit the nail right on the head!I to have spent 26 years of my life in this biz,and have to say my most enjoyable was in the military where we were disciplined into a craft that we we could actually use when we got out.spent 6 yrs on ch-47a helos and 3 with CAL (what a shame)and 19 with UAL as lead line mechanic.and now i am back in GA {WHAT A JOKE)you guys leaving the bigs look out for little men with airline mechanics cant do shit syndrome!The pay is crap and benefits non existent.Either way you look at it i am a journeyman mechanic and can work circles with a wrench {not a pen or book}like some of my co workers who truly need to be behind a desk!It is truly sad to see what has happened to this biz.I know most of us do this because of are true love for airplanes!But as we all know you ain’t no pilot and we will never make the kind of money these guys demand.Good luck to you guys who are trying to make it in this field!
the only advise i have to the youth looking for a career in aviation maintenance is, don’t. you will find that your A&P license is highly valued at utility and mass transit companies, almost everywhere except at airports. when you start at the airlines you will spend years and even decades on 3rd shift. you’ll be working in the rain, snow, sleet, wind and dark. if you really need to be a mechanic then go into the automotive field. the pay is much higher and the hours are better. now delete this site from your computer and don’t come back!
These are topics that have been brought up here at the conference. That is why it was organized in the first place. People saw the need to do something to retain the maintenance talent we have in the industry and attract young blood in as the grey hairs retire. Brad Townsend with NBAA discussed “Project Bootstrap” which proposes to have an advanced certification (not FAA certificates, but an industry accepted standard) that gives those in the industry the ability to obtain recognition for advancement in their career. It has already been implemented for avionics technicians through NCATT. This gives those of us in the aircraft maintenance field more opportunities for career advancement other than the existing A&P then IA. That can lead to higher pay for higher education (certification) levels. It could booster career advancement and show prospective students there is a broad career path should they choose to enter aircraft maintenance.
As far as “stay away,” that is easier said than done. Many stay in (or keep coming back) because of their love of aviation. Why not pick ourselves up by the bootstraps and make this career a profession instead of walking away?
Joe Escobar
My career in aviation has taken me down both pilot and mechanic paths starting in the Air Force as an aircraft electrician. In maintenance, I quickly advanced to D of M and Chief Inspector of Part 121 airlines. Because of my A&P experience, I became a reliability engineer for a decade. I loved that period of time and was involved in maintenance training there however, I could see a lack of funding for training and decided that I should go to work for pilot and maintenance training at a college where more contact with new entrants would be an exciting challenge.
I joined the full-time faculty and worked both flight training and aircraft maintenance training. I noticed a huge problem with the Part 147 program in that the curriculum was so far behind the industry where hours spent at a work table were not balanced with flight line activity at all. It was demoralizing to the students who saw us at the airport working on and flying real airplanes. The FAA would not budge on the workbench training and couldn’t substitute any hours on the line.
As Department Head (which included other areas such as ASE certified Automotive Training) I could see problem was exacerbated by a lack of State Funding across the board. Required full-time help was not available over a period of 10 years and the programs did not fit into the college budget at all.
We had no choice but to terminate both mechanic and pilot programs.
Technology programs at the district level are where the training can meet the masses of students coming from Jr. and Sr. high school. That is where the direct contact takes place in counseling programs. That is where the focus has to be placed; with money. I had no problem recruiting well experienced retired mechanics and pilots as part time instructors.
I tried to get industry envolved in funding these projects but, they had their own problems and would not participate. They said that they do not pay for the education of accountants and lawyers so, why should they pay for mechanics and pilots?
I think we can see why they should!
Dan,
Good points. Thanks for the feedback. Fortunately, these are issues that are being addressed. The changes won’t happen overnight, but it is good to see that all stakeholders are sitting down and discussing these important topics.
Joe Escobar
What I propose to get “youth” interested in Aviation maintenance?
1. Numero Uno…Big salary.
2. Free MP3 players with unlimited music downloads.
3. Provide aircraft tugs with “spinning” hubcaps and sub-woofers.
4. Did I mention a big salary?
Here’s a thought! Mirror EASA part 66/147 and make it more difficult/expensive to become a licenced mechanic/technician/AME/LAME/etc.
End the long run, it will result in a better trained workforce and fewer workers. Supply & Demand will drive wages up!
Add an education component too. GA mechanic minimum trade school certificate/AAS degree. Transport category minimum BS degree.
That would be “In” the long run…
Men, I am a 53 year old retired aviation mechanic. I am going back to a technical school to get my A&P license. the reason being is that you can do nothing to make any decent money without some sort of cetification of license. However bad it is being portrayed I must believe that there is some good in the field. My hope and desire is to be able to inspire a few young people to be amoung the few and proud aircraft mechanic’s who really enjoy the craft.
If you want new blood in aviation maintenance, you need to educate them first.I work for a 147 school, and also do contract maintenance on the side to maintain skills. I went to a local high school to recruit new students not to long ago. A question I presented to the students in front of me, there were 35 of them, was “Does anyone have an interest in Aviation?” No answer. I reworded the question and still no answer. Finally, I asked “Can anyone tell me what the word Aviation means or pertains to?” Not one person in the room could tell me what aviation meant. And this was a group of high school juniors, and seniors.
What we need is Industry to promote itself, and the best way would be to run TV ads, short clips, focusing on what we as A&P’s do. Maybe a billboard sign in a frequently traveled area. We’ve also had limited success in playing to the Senior Citizen crowd. Sometime they’ll relay the info to their grandkids.
As far as the 147 Curriculum, what you all need to understand, is that we get people in our school, all different ages (from 19 to 65 years old), and most of them have never picked up a file or hacksaw in their life. They don’t know how to use a rachet or drill a hole! They have no idea how to operate a jack. So I ask you, how advanced do you want to train these people, and how long do you want it to take. The 147 curriculum when done right provides entry level mechanics for the aviation maintenance field. That’s all it was ever supposed to do. You want advanced training, go work for a service center, airline, corporate flight department. Thanks for listening.
greetings from a 40 year mechanic/avionics combat vet. As all meetings with industry, Government, and academia, lunches are eaten and backs are slapped and everyone ends up with gas. So goes this meeting along with all the others. Industry won’t pay, Government (Federal Anti Aviation Administration) will continue to enforce usless rules and be a pest, and academia will continue to teach the requirements and charge big money for entry level qualifications. The change will come when the so called mechanic shortage is actually real. Yes magazine editors and government pubah’s, there is no shortage. As long as airlines are laying people off, the retired come out of retirement to work for nothing, and Joe Blow has friends that sign him off to take the tests, there are too many mechs depressing wages. Now the shortages of avionics techs is becomming real and low and behold, wages are climbing along with benefits.
So, to answer the question on how to get more people into the profession is to discourage, dissuade, and openly bad mouth the profession so we can create an actual shortage. When Mr. Airplane Owner cannot get a job done at all, wages and conditions will increase. As proof of this nurses got lousy pay and were generally treated by doctors as meat a few years ago. They all left and now everyone reading this knows the deal with nurses. Nuf said.
BTW, I have 3 aircraft, work on mine only and make lots of money doing home improvements for second home owners who will pay me more to be an electrician than work on their aircraft.
Let’s be realistic, the government got out of subsidizing airlines approx. 20 years ago, (just about when I started as an airline mechanic). Airlines then reached into the pockets of businessmen to make up the difference. By gouging this group with a policy called, “revenue management”, a premium for spur of the moment travel was added. With the close ties between government and business, the government again felt like they were subsidizing the airlines, (high expense of airfares left businesses with less funds to fill political coffers). So policies to “promote competition”, were put in place to reduce airfares. This gradual reduction of fares was sped up with approval of more and more airlines to crowd the skies and tarmac. Now the “legacy carriers” were forced to earn less or lose more money with the addition of each new entrant. The effective process, although gradual, was further sped up with the 9-11 tragedy. Now the induced weakness of major carriers and the potential affect on commerce caused our government to guarantee bank loans to ailing airlines, (often misconstrued as government giving out cash, even though government actually made cash on the deal), what an arrangement. Why can’t I do that??? Anyway, government loan guarantee was on condition that airlines reduce wages, how nice of them. This, in effect, is the point where subsidizing the airlines was transferred to airline workers. Now, almost everyone can afford to fly with their kids for vacation to Disneyland. Unfortunately, the airline workers are not part of this group. Sure, we may get to fly there for free, but we no longer can afford to get in.
Now, the government threw the ball that initiated the downward spiral of hard earned wages of airline employees, (with its’ conditional loan guarantee being contingent on substantial wage reductions), but it was unrelenting airline management that caught the pass and ran with the ball until they stomped on everything in sight. I guess somehow it was understood, that wage reduction applied only to the rank and file, not upper level management, (who were actually given bonuses).This group quickly interpreted the government demand to reduce wages, to also mean a reduction of; benefits, vacations, sick days, sick pay, overtime rates, insurance, medical, employee non-revenue travel policies, elimination of shift premiums and termination of pension plans. The rewards of these implementations was quickly apparent, although rewards didn’t come anywhere close to what was taken away. However, jubilation was widespread, if not for the modest monetary gains, then for the significant loss of pride inflicted on its’ dazed employee group.
So, how do we get young students interested in aviation? Well, I’d start off by not letting any of them speak with me. I would tell them to remove any pockets they now put money in, as they would no longer have a use for them. I would encourage them to invest in a wheel barrow so they would have something handy to carry the massive credit card debt they will accumulate trying to raise a family in the northeast on an income that is equivalent to or below the national poverty level. I would also tell them how I still love working on aircraft, but am so sick of my quality of life that even that joy has diminished. I would have to inform them that an A&P License is valued by some, such as freight carriers and powerplant companies that are more than anxious to hire those with previous airline experience, and close to the top wage scale.
Yes, there is a future for A&P mechanics, just not with most of the airlines.
Now, how can we change the situation?
- Start with our government which assisted the airline industry in rolling back tangible and intangible employee health and wealth with an impunity even Wal-Mart would be proud of.
-Start by reversing present wage trend.
-Stop Pseudo-Wage Increases, it is an insult to intelligence and shows enormous disrespect.
-Start calling A&P’s Technicians.
- Start applying the Railroad Labor Act, which also governs airline workers, in areas that benefit airline workers, like decent wages commensurate with responsibility, good medical and pension benefits like those enjoyed by railroad workers.
-Stop applying Railroad Labor Act to airline workers only when benefitial to airline, such as prolonged contract extentions and strike prevention.
- Start developing a relationship of mutual respect, earned not by talk, but by actions.
- Stop pitting employee groups against each other.
Who am I trying to kid, it’s too late already.
Keeping pace with evolving technology is a challenge for any aircraft mechanic. For the next generation to move ahead, the FAA must update its A&P testing requirements. Testing drives most of the training for the licensing process and an adjustment is clearly needed. For most of us, aircraft maintenance is our livelihood, not a leisure pursuit. Specific knowledge on how to splice a wood spar or patch up a Stearman is not as indispensable as good computer skills or how to read schematics.
The world is experiencing an explosive fascination in high technology. Auto, truck and marine mechanics are struggling to keep their training in step with advancing technology while A&P students are struggling to stay awake during lessons about oil dilution and Casein glue. The only logical reason for a master rod in a classroom anymore should be to keep papers from flying off a desk. The time has come to close the books on radial engines and wooden aircraft structures. An updated skill set that incorporates an elevated dose of electronics is essential for working on most operational aircraft. Some of the near obsolete technology should be set aside as a separate expertise and made available after licensing.
Aircraft, avionics and service technicians held about 142,000 jobs in 2004. If the FAA were to make a contemporary study of the basic requirements for entry level A&P graduates, it would be apparent that “Lindbergh era” questions on an A&P exam are nothing but expensive history lessons. To satisfy the existing need for qualified people, we should raise the bridge and not lower the water. Knowledge is power and unlocking the mysteries of modern technologies requires extra emphasis on reading skills and classroom instruction. A sharp mechanic that knows their way around modern technologies can have a long successful career in or out of aviation. Timing a radial engine or making a wooden rib shouldn’t be a prerequisite in becoming a modern day mechanic just as learning to fly a biplane is not a prerequisite in becoming a modern day pilot.
I threatened my son I would disown him if he went into the aviation field. I worked aviation for over thirty years now and never seen it as bad as it is now. Between corporation greed and the governments distruction of the middleclass, we are in a fight for our financial survival. Many of us now in our fifties and without the promised retirement corporations promised us when we hired on. I did at one time work general aviation and enjoyed it very much. But the sad fact is, unless you are happy with living from pay check to pay check with no real financial future I suggest looking somewhere outside of aviation. Preferrably a professional job where you can do the screwing instead of being screwed.
As a prospective student in this field, I am trying to gather as much information as possible. Ive read a lot of your remarks throughout this webiste, and I must say that the industry doesnt sound all that bright. Is it truly as bad as its made to seem? I have been interested in aviation as far back as I can remember and would love to work in this field, but based on all of your remarks and others from various places, it doesnt seem as though this would be a wise venture.
Alan,
You will get what you put into it. Yes, you will have a rough start. Racking up student loans to pay for school, then maxing out your credit cards to buy the minimum tools needed to start working. Starting pay is not through the roof, and working conditions can include working outside in the weather or in stressful conditions. You also have the responsibility of putting your livelihood on the line each time you sign a logbook.
But we all knew that going in. We all knew that we weren’t becoming aircraft maintenance professionals to get rich quick or to have a cush office job. If your love of aviation is strong, and you have a positive attitude, you can move up the career ladder.
A former supervisor told me, “Attitude, more than aptitude, determines career altitude.”
Joe Escobar
I have to agree with a previous comment concerning supply and demand. At the school I just left, they were cranking out 25 students every 2 months. Granted, not all will become A&P’s, but multiplied by the number of part 147 schools out there, how many students are actually entering the work force, versus how many are leaving? I dont see the schools slowing down, though. That’s how they make their money. Maybe the FAA should limit the number of 147 schools? This flooding of the market is only helping the schools and the airlines, not the mechanics. We are the commodity to be exploited. What is the purpose here? To better the life of the mechanic, or provide the airlines with an endless supply of cheap labor? It sounds like the topic here is how do we up the quality of the cheap labor! That’s really going to help the people out there looking for jobs now. I think current part 147 schools cover the basics well enough to give the employer an idea about the students aptitude. Any further industry specific training should be at the expense of the airline, not the student. I believe this would cause the airlines to treat them better because they now have something invested in the mechanic.
Also, I dont mind learning about radial engines, wood, dope and fabric. It’s heritage and history. Those planes are still flying, although not as much.
Interesting thoughts Ken. Sure, the wages in any industry are controlled mostly by supply and demand. You bring up an interesting suggestion in limiting the Part 147 schools the FAA certifies. I definitely don’t think that will ever happen. Looks like aircraft maintenance wages will continue to be based on the number of mechanics certificated each year versus the amount of mechanics the industry needs. Surplus equals low wages. Shortage equals higher wages and benefits or perks to try to compete for the limited pool.
That, plus some pilots in GA driving wages (and shop rates) down by continuing to have their aircraft maintained by shade tree mechanics willing to pencil whip paperwork and sell themselves out in order to make a quick buck.
Joe Escobar
Hey Joe does attitude fix airplanes?I think not,to Alan my suggestion to you kid would get in another trade make some good money and buy yourself a plane.then you could work and fly in it and enjoy the true meaning of aviation,not working for scumbags.seems this biz is full of them!!
Joe, You talk about shadetree mechanics selling out GA. As a former airline employee in INDY that’s how I feel about places like AAR.
I work for an engine OEM and make 87K per year in technical sales. I went to an A&P school for the 14 months required period after a two year stint in the army as a helicopter crewchief.
I work mostly with general aviation and corporate AC and the FBO’s I work with are constantly looking for good qualified people as we are also.
suggestions for the training.
I did the dope & fabric, the wooded rib and timed the radial. It gave me good shop skills and made me understand how things work. If you can understand and explain the masterrod in a radial then other things come easy. So, the hands on training is important. If you really want to excell in aviation you had better know how things work so you can solve problems rather than be a remove and replace until it works mechanic. There is room in the curriculum for some of the new procedures used such as data downloads on the new AC.
What I see now in some of the schools is not an attempt to graduate the highest trained people but to get the most money out of the student with the least amount of expense in training. The FAA needs to monitor this.
Image - Our industry has a damn good safety record. this needs more attention. When things do go wrong it is out there front and center for the whole world to see. We as an industry need to monitor ourselves more to keep this from happening. Just think back on some of the major occurances and I think you’ll agree that they could have easily been avoided with some better communication.
I would suggest to AMT that some of the letters to the editor that do nothing but compain how the airlines have treated them not be published. It does nothing to promote the industry we are in.
One aspect I have not seen so far is from the consumers perspective.
WE the consumer demand low prices for everything.
WE the consumer punish suppliers if WE do not get it OUR way by not doing business with them.
Businesses in general have no choice but to kowtow to the comsumers demands since there will always be another supplier that will deliver the lower price WE demand.
Now don’t get me wrong for a minute, I love aviation and have been in it all my 45 years of existence, but we certainly cannot look at the problems it has as being only caused by inept government or greedy business leaders. WE the consumer have to bear a large part of the fault for aviation, and many other industries, being in the state they are in.
WE elected the people in Washington. If WE don’t like how they are doing things, WE need to change it.
WE the consumer don’t think for a minute about the fact that there is no possible way for profit to be made selling roundtrip tickets between DFW and LAX for $159 or less. But WE the consumer are the ones that demand just that.
I certainly don’t have the answers, but WE ALL need to start working together or else every industry in this country, not just aviation, is going to go down the drain.
Well, I have read all the comment thus far, and I must say the Pros slightly out weight the Cons. I have been in Aviation/Aerospace for over 30 years, both military and civil. I have seen the good time and the bad.
One of the things I don’t see for the Aviation Mechanic/Technician is a ladder to and a closer association with the Engineering field. The two are close enough to call it just one field. These fields should so structured as to require achieving one before the other. The Engineer should be required to start out at the mechanic or technician level of training first, thus establishing the first level of maintenance. Of course the ladder would lead on up into higher levels of engineering, but this would serve as an incentive for those younger people with that mechanical inclination. This would also function as a feeder for this field, in that treating it as one would supply technicians and engineers for the entire aviation and aerospace industry…right on up to NASA.
So why not re-title this field for both the aviation and aerospace industry with the title “AiRandSpace Vehicle Engineer”. T me, it makes little sense to see an Aerospace Engineer making three times as much as a A&P with both in possession of the same basics skill sets. This new title would be scalable in accordance with where served in the industry. To make this all work, this title would have to be treated as one, and only one, with the different levels reflecting the different positions held within the industry.
This is rough, but a start, I think. Presently, most mid-level Engineers do not even recognize who or what a Mechanic ot Technician is. If you can add to what I have started here, contact me.
OK Joe, that’s no bringing up politics, religion or AVIATION MAINTENANCE.
I was with one of the big 3 for 20 years. What started out great slowly but surely went to crap. No money for the employees but plenty for bonuses for the executives. No money for mechanics but plenty to pay pilots 30% above the industry standard. Finally the layouff came and I took a voluntary termination and am glad I left. No more wrench turning for me. The airline executives have destroyed an excellent career path and an excellent industry. You won’t be able to fix anything until you fix that.
The system that we have now has been around for a long time and is still serving the industry well enough today. Its cheap easy to adjust the curriculum as the industry changes, though the FAA only makes slight modifications every generation or so. The government cannot raise the standard for mechanics very much before the program starts overtaking IA and DER knollege minimums. A more progressive approach would be a 500-1000 hour classroom only program that provides a provisional licence that would mature after an additional year of work experience. Paying a school thousands of dollars to supervise a shop project is absolutely rediculas. I was always bothered by the fact that technically an eighteen year old A&P with no experience has the same value as a forty year old with twenty years experience. A young pilot has to put in some time before he can qualify for a ATP, a young engineer needs five years before he can get a PE licence. Anyway the plight of many A&Ps is much like finding yourself living in a bad neighborhood, its hard to change but easy to leave.
I would like to know what came out of this final “Future of Aviation Maintenance” conference. This was a third in a series and my inside sources tell me not much came of it. My interests are grounded in the education of the next generation of AMTs/Mechanics, but as a working AMT all issues affect me. The problems this industry is facing will need to be addressed from all sides – schools, employers and the FAA. However we can no longer continue doing the same things as we have in the past. Here are some of my concerns and ideas – anyone have any comments?
1. The FAA. I have always experienced nothing but cooperation from those I have met or dealt with. I truly believe they are here to help.
One area I see that could be fixed is what to call us. ONLY in Part 147 does the regulations refer to certificated (we are not licensed) A&Ps as Aviation Maintenance Technicians (AMT). ALL other regulations refer to us as mechanics. I have also heard of another movement to change the title to Aviation Maintenance Engineer which I personally prefer. This is what the rest of the world uses, they may have something here. See Victor’s comments also – very cool idea.
Another area that government, not necessarily the FAA but they could help, is to make sure we are considered ‘skilled’ workers by the occupational handbook.
2. The employers. It disgusts me that so many of the blog responses have revealed the number of times a mechanic/A&P/AMT/AME has been pressured to sign off unairworthy aircraft and somehow punished for not doing so. In my short career I have already lost count of the number of times I have been asked to sign off something I did not do or witness to get the aircraft or component back in-service and seen others ‘pencil-whip’ their own work. It is becoming common place and if only the general public knew about it how would that affect air travel? It affects who I choose to fly with! I don’t have an answer for this except to hope those A&Ps who abhor this type of behavior get into management and try to stop this trend.
It is well understood that maintenance is an expense; but those who do the maintenance are assets and must be treated as such, like pilots and flight attendants. We must all work together to increase our professional standing in the industry.
Employers understand that they must train new maintenance hires on their specific aircraft and policies and procedures – they do this with pilots and flight attendants. But they should expect employees to possess the knowledge and skills needed to become efficient quickly after this company training.
3. This brings me to the AMT schools. AMT teachers and administrator via ATEC (Aviation Technician Education Council) talk about competency-based training as a solution to this problem. They talk about wanting to reduce the number of required training hours, but if they can not graduate an AMT for the current high-tech world of aviation maintenance in 1900 hours how do they expect to do it in less?
I did a recent survey on teachers’ attitudes regarding student learning and found it disheartening and completely disassociated from the philosophical basis for competency-based training. [I am hoping I am chosen to be present my findings at the ATEC conference in April.] My survey revealed that 13 out of 33 respondents agreed that “current regulations (FAR Part 147) do not allow a school to use competency-based training.” Sadly, this belief is incorrect. There is NOTHING in the current regulations that prevent a school from using ANY form of learning methodology to teach the required subject matter. It is hypothesized in my thesis that it is not necessarily what is being taught but how it is being taught that is the primary basis for the inadequately trained AMT graduates.
Teachers and administrators need to start looking at instructional strategies and methodologies to better educate their students, never lowering the standards but raising them. If graduates are well prepared for their careers then I believe the aviation maintenance industry is willing to pay for quality for in the long run it will save them money in training, cost of rework, ‘no-fault found’ issues and reduced hangar time for aircraft as well as building pride back into our profession.
The FAA and industry also have a role to play in helping teachers and administrators achieve their goals, but I could go on forever about the subject of aviation maintenance education reform…Standards-based [competency-based] education, FAA testing, ABET certification of curriculums, etc. I thank AMT magazine and Joe Escobar for allowing me this opportunity to share my thoughts.
i am working for india’s international airlines for last 18 years as a A & P mechanics here it is called as service engg.a/c,non licence. in both line & major maint. i passed my BAMEL exam.equvalent to FAA exam. conducted by DGCA [INDIA’GOVERNING BODY]now i am waiting for next pramotion as licence or approval holder engg. because compare to another job we are getting less salary,more risk and three shifts,no hilidays etc. but in india due to unemployment & aviation boom students are prefer to become as aircraft mechanic.but in india we can’t study FAA/EASA/CAA course.for that study we must required to leave india and go abroad.in india it is very difficult to change the line also. please guide me, regards s.s.pednekar
I hired on with a major corporation, started at the bottom and worked my way up to an A&P. I wanted to become a pilot as my future. I’ll tell you straight up that there is no future for either. I feel like my A&P license is worthless as corporate america and our lousy union negotiate worse and worse contracts. before long I’ll be making minimum wage and will have no retirement at all. this profession has been a big disappointment to say the least. I would recommend med school or something definitely in the Medical field. Aviation is a dead end career with No future whatsoever. It was a bad mistake and now at 37 years old I am considering HVAC. there’s more money in that and LESS Corporate thieves.
The aviation field is like any other field. Some succeed and others do not. It is not the field that is wrong, but rather the attitude of the participants. Management gets the blame for all problems, but lets be honest here, if management causes all the problems, then management will also have to pay for the mistakes. I believe the airline industry has very intense competition from all ends. This includes other low wage countries that are educating themselves to be able to provide aircraft maintenance at a fraction of the cost here in the U.S. We need to come up with better techniques or practices to maintain our aircraft in order for the airlines to keep the jobs here and pay us above average wages. Remember, if there was no one willing to work for the airlines at low wages and no benefits then the airlines would have no choice but to raise airline fares then wages. The truth is that supply and demand is driving the wages lower and lower and mechanics do not like it because the easy ride has stopped. I believe that the airline maintenance industry is a great industry for anyone having interest in aviation. But remember about competition, the individual will have to keep educating himself/herself to keep up with the field. For those of you upset about the current stage of the aviation field “I am Sorry” but there is no more free lunch or subsidies by the general public or government.
Mike
A&P, FCC, Bachelor’s degree .
Thank you for telling me the truth about the aviation industry, i wish i was told this a year ago, which i would smack the lyin recruiter to the school which i attended, i learned nothing, i paid 32,000$ for an education that is worthless, and an A&P license or certificate that is also worthless unless signing off an aircraft, thats about it! Man i wasted my year of my life, ill never look back, thank god for this site, and i learn many lessons in life, this has got to be the biggest one as i saw how much it cost to attend aviation school for only 9,000$ in public, compared to 30,000$ in private institutions that hire lying recruiters to get people in this field to think that they will make over 100,000$ a year when they get out. Thank you, i will never look back again.
Well mr. escobar, ill tell you what you can do to get more people into this field, tell the FAA to shut down shady schools that offer fake training programs, such as Redstone Institute, Westwood COllege of Aviation, and Aviation Institute of Maintenace. All of which was changed and sold to other schools at he duration of the time when i was attending, which is ridiculous because the students who attended paid 32,000$ for cheap tools, cheap books that arnt even college material, for what do i have to spend 7 hours of my life everyday, almost half my life, to go to a school that has no future, please tell me for what? A&P = worthless certificate, i deeply love aviation, but the shady people in this industry just gets me so angry. The sad part is the FAA does not even shut down this school, it is the fact that they which i have reason to believe are bribed to let this school go forward, to let new A&P sign off and to let disasters happen any second, just so the airlines can run, the economy can move, and the FAA can exist. You can also help by shutting down schools that hire recruiters to go to high scools to lie to those kids about how “you will make 100,000$ once you get out of school, you can travel the world, and when you retire you will be realy rich!” Thats what they hired the recruiters for, i purposely joined because i had a deep love for aviation, i didnt care what the recruiter said, but anyhow he made threats to me about what would happen if i quit, such low lifes, in aviation, a school hiring recruiters to make threats to students who quit. I am leaving and i am leaving for good im glad i found this page and i hope future people can find it too and read about this and not make the same mistakes i have made. And the one and most important lesson i have learned, DONT TRUST ANYONE IN AVIATON, IN THE END ITS EITHER YOU OR HIM
oh by the way joe escobar, on one of your remarks about Alan, who are you trying to kid buddy, this field is shameful and worthless, unless you are lucky, very few is lucky, even if ur lucky ur still replaceable. For the money to join this field i could have had a Bachelors degree in a respectable college. and got out and made a way more easier living then this. Love of aviation, you could always buy toy planes.STOP BSING THE YOUTH, DONT JOIN THIS FIELD!
How? As The college establishes an aircraft mechanic training program that is approved by the FAA. Spartan provides all the necessary skills to become an entry-level aircraft mechanic and learn the mechanics and maintenance skills required by the FAA
As far as i know, our FAA district Manager for Schools, graduated from Spartan, he himself told us that we are a shameful school, he tries his best to enforce laws, but in the end money and bribery just plays a big part. Our school is worthless compared to others i been to, i feel unfair, and i feel tricked out of my own time. I wish i had never did this in the first place.
I think joe escobar is a tool, nothing more, what a douche bag trying to convince people to join aviation, get a life loser, i been in the industry 27 years and i can assure you this is not the industry anyone would want to join, get yourself a 4 year college degree you will be happy you did not make the mistake of joining some crazy aviation school charging you roughly 50,000$ for just an A&P that does not matter, you could get the same in a 2 year public school provided by your state, but the time and effort that is put into this, you are better off studying to become an engineer, dont be fooled by what those people say about how much money they make, you never know how it might effect you in the long run.
Wow! In regards to the gentleman who wrote the posting above — with such a professional attitude, eloquent use of the English language, and respect for others, I’m sure you will go far in any career you choose.
Best of luck to you!
I wanted to see what there is in aviation such that I might hold on to a shred of optimism as a 21 year AMT with a big 3. So, I searched on ‘glory of aviation mechanic’ and ended up reading all these comments, with surprise that comments are still coming in to this date. To all, let us be realistic, Glory is all in the past. It only works for the already well-off. The comment of becoming wealthy in some other career and then buying your plane and maintaining it, is truly the only way to get any where near the feel of aviation glory. I have too many years invested and as I am still hanging in there, I can only take personal solace on what it is I do for a living. I am too ashamed to let it be known to any one more then I have to. I do not like it but I and the family get along o.k. even though I do not know if I will still be employed next year or even next month. If you join aviation, do not do it for the sake of a growing career, you will have to step on too many soles to get there and you will not feel so good (unless you are the ruthless type). The cons by virtue of the weight, out-do the desire for aviation and its benefits at this point and I think there is where it will always will be. The true USA professional AMT/AET and his top notch workmanship has been deflated beyond repair. As I said, I hold on to a tiny shred of optimism, I have too. Some day I hope to either bring back the Professionalism, High Standards and High Recognition… or at least live long enough to see it. If we can not rebuild the foundation from the floor, May someone get to the top to make the difference. Die hard mechanic, -BJ
Hey Mike, With regards you your comment, you know nothing, you mere tool. Go get a Ph.D before you talk like your’re an expert. This is another example of why Aviation sucks there’s fake (deleted) like this guy.
Hi all,
Can anyone refer me to some great technicians that have their airframe and powerplant license? The catch is that they have to have experience working with avionics and sheet metal. I have a great company that is looking to hire direct with these types of technicians.
Hey Cori
Go find another job, this career sucks.
A former supervisor told me, “Attitude, more than aptitude, determines career altitude.” Joe Escobar
Yea i bet you kissed a lot of asses, to get to where you are, you should be ashamed of yourself, Go get a real job you fake [deleted], do you even read what you wrote, Racking up student loans to pay for school, yea expensive as hell and biggest mistake anyone can make, and then you got to buy tools oh thats another blow, oh and then when you finally go out and work you make close to minimum wage, oh no!! all that effort for nothing, and now you end up working outside in dangerous conditions and anyday is an accident waiting to happen, could be you or could be your friend who was working with you, and there he goes dead, and you risk your life working on these planes for what? Nothing in return, not even a secure job, i say this the hell with aviation, the true aviation code is when a man gets admired and appreciated for the things he has done for the sky, well unfrotunately now a days its just the exact opposite, dont be fooled by this guy, you can see what hes trying to tell you, join aviation, be an ass kisser then climb over your friends and trample them down in order to get up in the ladder. Sounds like a great industry to join huh? I dont think so.
It seems like quite a few people posting comments despise this industry, yet they sure do spend a lot of time keeping up with it.
Why not apply some of your energy trying to fix what you see as wrong instead of only whining and complaining?
And personal insults — come on, if we want to be seen as more than minumum wage laborers, we should begin by acting as professionals.
Sam S.
In regards to your statement, i dont think you have any idea of what you are talking about, did you realize that we did do something about it? Did you realize that when we did our own President (George W. Bush) made it treason for us to do so? Did you even recall that event? I dont think so you uneducated fool. Things were already tried to push the wages and salary and respect for mechanics/technicians in this industry, unfortunately all people here that are in the higher ladder do is try to convince younger people to join yet they are the scum bags who were once mechanics too yet they are helping our government profit in billions. I guess you hadn’t realize whats going on in the real world, if you dont then do your research you retarded fool. Dont go on a place trying to convince what is already done, only way mechanics get respect is to get all of them out of the industry and let other people do the dirty work.
people iam totally confused with this career, some people are saying is better and others are saying it is worse , iam geting ready to join aircraft institute maintenance for FAA A & P licince,any GOOD advise should i join or should i go for any other career
If the program is at a public school and you like aviation sure why not but im going to tell you, you wont get paid sh!t, but if its at a private institution and they are chargiing an arm or a leg, then dont even waste your time you’re better off getting a bachelors in something else, like aerospace engineering, or mechanic engineering there are plenty of aviation jobs for those types, and you still get to enjoy it and make tons of money then any A&P. Trust me take it from me, i joined a school i wish i never joined. DONT MAKE THE SAME MISTAKE!
I believe that just because someone doesn’t have a degree doesn’t mean they don’t have experience. I’m a ex-military aircraft mechanic and pretty good at fixing aircraft if I do say so. I and many other military mechanics like me have the experience and the skills but not the license to repair aircraft. But at the same time there are students fresh out of school who still don’t know what a wrench is. My point is maybe the industries should consider other employee pools other than A&P schools.
What I believe is that if one has the skills and abilities then he can prove himself but some how degree is essential on some occasions and adds a lot to individual including the self confidence and many more.